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Room 301 Podcast S2 04: Spend or Suspend? Managing Marketing Budgets in Challenging Times

Posted on: July 18, 2024

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Rob Twells

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In this episode, Rob Twells jumps into the divisive topic of cutting marketing spend, and its impact on business success – with our special TDM guests, Pete Bingham, Brand Growth Manager, and Lucy Bradley from our Client Success Team.

Join us as we explore the idea of marketing as a 'nice to have' and how we can shift that understanding and recognise it as indispensable part of every business strategy.

We'll discuss the short- and long-term commercial impacts of cutting marketing budgets, sharing real-life examples of businesses that have thrived by prioritising their marketing efforts, as well as providing plenty of actionable insights and expert advice for when your business does find itself in that sticky situation.

Grab yourself a cup of tea and your favourite snack... it's time to step into Room 301!

Watch it on YouTube


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Podcast Transcription

Rob Twells

Thank you all for joining us today. We're going to be covering all things marketing budgets, whether to spend or suspend? I'm not sure we're going to keep that title, but there we are. Um, but really, it's all about how we explore the shift of perception from marketing being a nice to have, um, to sort of an indispensable part of any business strategy. So I'm pleased to be joined today by two of my colleagues, one of which is Mr. Bingham, Pete – do you want to introduce yourself very quickly?

Pete Bingham

Yeah. I’m Pete, and I've been at Digital Maze and Boom Online for ten years this year, actually last week. So some celebration there. I started off as a designer, and that's where I’ve spent most of my career as a designer and content creator. I’ve slowly and steadily worked my way through various disciplines in digital marketing. So I've got a really good understanding of most facets of digital marketing and whatnot. So now I'm the growth marketing lead at the Digital Maze, and I look after our various brands, from the Digital Maze to Frogspark and Boom and the other little bits and bobs that we do as well. Um, so marketing, social media, lead generation, running the podcasts with Robert and events and whatnot. And that's me basically just just those things, just just all those things. 

Rob Twells

All those things. Lovely job. And we've also got Lucy Bradley, who looks after our list of clients here at the Digital Maze. Lucy?

Lucy Bradley

Yeah. So I'm Lucy. As Rob said, I look after the Client Success team, at least for me. So I've been here seven years now. I originally started at Frogspark, so I think it was my anniversary last week or the week before. Um, so yeah, I originally started off doing digital marketing, started off as an apprentice here, then moved over to client services in 2021, I want to say?  And have just helped to sort of grow that team, look after our key clients. Um, so yeah, that's me. 

Rob Twells

Really cool. Seven years. My word. 7 and 10 years! And I think it's something like 12 for me at this point. But there we go. Um, cool. So like I say, we're going to talk about all things marketing budgets, um, you know, field some questions to the guests here. And then we're also going to have the Room 301 challenge at the end. And if you haven't listened to the podcast before, The Room 301 challenge is all about what we would redirect from the marketing world. What would we get rid of? What would we get rid of forever? What don't we like? Um. Answer the questions. Right. First question I'm going to ask whoever wants to jump in first. What do you think is a common perception of marketing in businesses today? And do you think it's changed or evolved over the years? 

Lucy Bradley

I'm happy to kick off. Um, I think it's that sort of classic answer of “it depends”. I think it depends. Not that I know that classic response, but classic. It does depend on a person's job role, what sector they work in. And I think generally just their understanding of marketing. I know you say most people in my life are constantly like, what do you do? I just don't don't understand marketing. So I think it completely depends what angle you're coming at it from. Um, I would say in more recent times with the growth of digital marketing, it has helped change the perception more positively, more so because we've got the data behind campaigns to show the effectiveness and easier to report on ROI, that kind of thing. Um, so I think that's definitely helped to change it from marketing just being something that's, you know, quite fluffy and pretty to actually this is quite data driven and is quite imperative to business success. 

Pete Bingham

Yeah, I go a bit further than that, to be honest, because I think, like you say, you tell people what you do and they're like, what is that like, etc. and that I think marketing and advertising has always been held as, you know, almost like a bit manipulative and intrusive. And there's been a strong perception that a lot of it I've heard this quite a bit, not by my practices or anything we do, of course. Um, that a lot of it is snake oil, you know. You know, what are they doing? We don't know. But we need an agency. You know, I don't I don't think Google and um, online ads, bad practices, and we're raising it already – AI, shoddily written articles have helped, especially in the last few years. You know, um, I think, you know, when you speak to people outside of our bubble, uh, community, whatever you want to call it, um, it tends to be quite negative occasionally or at best, ambivalent. You know, the snake oil, the charlatans, the. I can do it all quicker, cheaper and whatever. And so for those of us that are trying to do it with our users and customers clients, um, first, you know, we have to work so much harder on that. And I think, like you say, the rise of digital marketing and especially the rise of sort of brand marketing has definitely helped shape that into a better position. I think in recent years where consumers and, um, business owners and everybody, marketers expect brands to be more wholesome, more transparent, more socially responsible. So I think hopefully digital marketing is growing up. But there are still challenges, you know, from new technology, um, social media, all that sort of thing. So even if you're doing the right things for the right reason, there's still, you know, a dose of skepticism out there. But I do think the perception is changing. And I think brand has a lot to do with that. 

Rob Twells

Yeah, no, I agree, I think. I tend to think that from anybody who's not involved in marketing, there's this sort of perception that of all these tools and I it's actually getting easier. Yeah, yeah. But I think if you work in marketing, you'll know that it's getting much harder. But I think, you know, yeah. Talking you know, purely selfishly, I think that's a good thing because actually I think it will weed out the the charlatan agencies, the poor agencies and, you know, the really good agencies that do things by the book, do things ethically and follow all the guidelines and do the right thing for long term results are going to rise to the top. 

Pete Bingham

Um, yeah, I think that's right. I think if it's easy for everyone to do, you know, then everyone's going to be doing it and you're not going to see that benefit, you're not going to be as competitive, etc., etc.. So yeah. Absolutely.

Rob Twells

Correct. Um, so why do we think or why is marketing often seen as a dispensable part of a budget. So when budgets are tight and we know, you know, it's been a tough few years for lots of different industries since probably 2020 at this point, and even maybe dating back further than that, you know, we've been part of it, unfortunately, at times where, you know, marketing budgets have been cut and that means clients have left and stuff like that. Why do you think that's one of the first things on the the hit list, so to speak? 

Pete Bingham

Uh, I. There are lots of reasons, aren't there? Um, I mean, we can't get past. We've all had, you know, a tricky past 4 or 5 years with Covid you know, cozzy livs and all that. Um, uh, I think marketing's often seen as a nice to have, possibly because the ROI isn't communicated to, you know, the key decision makers at businesses. Uh, but I don't think anyone's in business is naive enough to think that it has no potential for impact. I just think that, um, if you've not been clear on. You know, what successes you've seen. You know what's gone badly over the last six months, year, etc. it's going to be really difficult to convince them of its impact on revenue, revenue generation compared to, you know, perhaps other things in their industry, in their business where they can see, you know, we sold X amount of whatever or this is going really well. Um, but, you know, if if market force has put something at risk, you can bet that the MD will be looking at something to cut and trim the fat wherever. So if you've not been communicating from day one with the right people, with the right data showing the good and the bad. Being a bit flexible with your strategy, then when it comes to the crunch and we find ourselves in these various crises or, you know, it might be specific just to that sector, then the MD, your agency, marketing team, whatever needs to be asking these questions of each other every month or every quarter. Not when it's too late. You know, when you're against the the firing squad sort of thing. 

Lucy Bradley

Yeah, I completely agree with that, Pete. To be honest, I think it it depends. You need to make sure that you say you're speaking to the right person, you're reporting on the right KPIs. You're giving them the answers they need to see. Actually, marketing is not a nice to have it. It is really crucial to the growth of this business and generating leads, sales, etc.. So I think like you say, it's it's about knowing who you're talking to, the data that you're giving them and the message that you're sending across. 

Rob Twells

Yeah. And you know, that loser from, you know, your day to day working with a lot of our key clients. Unfortunately sometimes it's, you know, sometimes you can do as much as possible, but they won't see the value until you lay it down as clearly and as black and white as possible to them to say X amount of effort went in and we got X amount of sales or output off the back of that. I think also as well. Again, just from my point of view, I think, you know, quote unquote top of funnel activity is becoming more important now. So putting out the content, doing things like this podcast and webinars and events and all that kind of stuff, and often there's not a direct correlation between that and lead generation. So it's very difficult to quantify to to whoever it is, is making the decision that it's worthwhile doing, because often it's a long term thing as well. Often you won't see the results of the effort you're doing today until, I mean, B2B, it could be a two year sales cycle, for instance. There's very difficult to justify that. And I think that's just an education thing. I think there's just education around actually a B2B buyer, if we're just going to take that by example. It's no different to a B2C buyer. It's still a human at the end of the telephone. It's still a human at the end of the computer or laptop or smartphone. And I think it's convincing the budget holders, so to speak, that producing the content, however much it cost, because it can be quite expensive, it's still worthwhile doing even if there's not a direct correlation. And of course, if you've got tight budgets, I know small businesses out there, they haven't got the luxury of doing top of funnel, middle of the funnel, bottom of the funnel stuff, And yes, you have to prioritize the bottom of the funnel stuff at that point. But I think if you are in a luxurious position where you've got the budget, you know, I would be doing it all effectively. And I don't think that I think there's costs that should be certainly considered before doing all of that as well. Um, and obviously there's short term and long term consequences to cutting marketing budgets. Have you? I mean, what are your thoughts on on that? What are your thoughts on the impact short term against long term? 

Lucy Bradley 

Yeah, I think it depends. Yeah, I think it depends on on the strategy you've got in place and what, what platforms you're using. Obviously if we, if we were to say look at PPC and short term impact of that is your leads you've got coming in or the sales you're making, you're going to have a drastic impact straightaway. Um, with SEO, on the other hand, you might not see something for the first month or so, but it's the longer term impact of that and stopping that momentum and drops in visibility, all of that sort of thing are going to have a really negative, long, long term impact. 

Pete Bingham

I mean, yeah, I agree, I think, um, you know, if the short term is obvious, you know, you are just cost cutting. That's the main reason for it. Um, but, you know, not to get political. Um, we all know what happens when you cut services to, you know, address a crisis. And it's it is very short term thinking. It can cause huge problems down the line. So, you know, you have to invest your way out of a crisis. But, you know, not on bad marketing. So again, it's a it's about, you know, having that short term, this is what's happening at the moment and having that long term plan. 

Rob Twells

And I agree and I think I'm a big believer in the things you do today. And this week is you you know, you're going to thank yourself in 3 or 4 months time for the work. So the conversations that may end up may be for anybody listening to me. And people work very closely together on our own marketing strategies. I'm always in the mindset of the conversation we're having today. We'll see the benefits in four months time. Any marketing that you can have a conversation one day and get results the next. You know, it's very difficult to do that unless you've got massive budgets. It's quite difficult to do it as well. So I think short term, like like Lucy said, if you're looking at, you know, an easy thing to cut is PPC, isn't it? It's. It's a big expense for a lot of companies, but that has a direct correlation. You'd like to think that the data is there to be seen. It's very black and white. From my experience, the most common one to be caught is the search engine optimisation, because it's not quite as obvious, especially if you've only been investing in it for maybe less than 6 to 12 months. Because it's not until the 12 to 18 month mark you really start to reap the benefits and it compounds over time as well. Um, that's yeah, it is. 

Pete Bingham

That's the danger zone, isn't it, that sort of, you know, 12 month period where you've been with a client for so long or you've been using a strategy that long and maybe you're starting to see some results, but there's perhaps not enough to back up. You know what the long term strategy is? Absolutely. 

Lucy Bradley

Yeah. I think from like an agency's perspective, that's our job, to educate clients on what those risks are going to be and what the impact of cutting in a particular services. Um, and having that really like open communication about that. 

Rob Twells

Yeah, I think that's a good point to be fair. So I'm just just putting myself in the shoes of maybe a marketing leader or marketing team leader internally. But it also goes the same for us. You know, if if either a client from our perspective or somebody who's, um, boss or managing director, whatever you want to call them is considering cutting a marketing budget internally. I mean, what steps would you take, um, to perhaps, you know, share that value and hopefully convince them otherwise? 

Lucy Bradley

I think the most important step is to understand the why. Why is it that they're looking at cutting costs? Because if we need to support them and put a new plan forward, we need to understand what's going on for them internally, whether that is, you know, business performance over the past year or it could be our contact is getting a lot of pressure put on them by sort of senior stakeholders. What information do they need to see? Um, are we, you know, reporting on the wrong metrics do quarterly. We need to send over a better report, which is for those sort of more senior individuals. Um, yeah. I think it all comes down to the why they're looking to cut spend and where do they need to see growth or improvements. 

Pete Bingham

Yeah, I don't really have anything to add to that. I think that's that's certainly it has to happen from day one. You know, you have to keep your your key decision makers informed and they have to know the value of the work and what it brings in. And really, you should have something in your strategy for when this thing happens, because it is always a when it's not an if there's always going to be a downturn or it might even be, you know, off season, um, you know, knowing your season's, um, when's peak selling whatever you need to have a strategy for this sort of thing, you know, maybe bump PPC up for a bit, maybe cut it down a fraction. I don't know, it's always that sort of, you know, tendency to have a knee jerk reaction. You just cut everything away. But really, I guess it's a bit like, you know, refining, refining a recipe. You know, you keep the same ingredients, but you sort of adjust the ingredients to enhance the flavor, overall enjoyment. You sort of just tweak it initially and you should always be optimizing your marketing anyway. So, you know, maybe it's a chance to cut back on experimentation a tad or, you know, newer channels or things that haven't worked, but. You should have that roadmap and you should have from day one, that sort of plan of when things are going to dip. Um, you know, how how far into the future you need to plan. That will obviously depend on the industry and, you know, whether it's eCommerce or whatever and seasonal marketing trends and whatnot. But it should be happening from day one. 

Rob Twells

Yeah. And if I, if I put myself well, I suppose I am in the shoes because I'm obviously leading this business, but I suppose I would be the bag holder in this, in this example, I think something that I find important personally is, is really digging down into what what channels are working really well for us. And, you know, that's very obvious to carry on with that. We always, you know, myself and Pete, we always try and have a sort of a small part for experimental stuff as well. So it's it's understanding what's experimental, what's really working, what's kind of working got potential. And if you can bucket it up in those different ways, you can you can start to get a picture of what you should lean into, what you should lean out of. And if you know, if times do get tough and unfortunately, the, the, the worst case does have to happen, at least you've got a clearer picture of what to call, because I think all too often you hear a blanket statement of let's cut marketing. Well, actually, marketing is made up of 10 to 15 different channels and different activities and different initiatives. Yeah. The next question after that is, well, which initiative, which channels should we cut because. We can quite clearly see that this channel has worked for us, is working for us, and has worked for the last 12 years. This is quite new. It's got positive, positive signs of of it working for us. This channel just isn't working full stop. We can probably save some some there. I think it's important to go quite granular with your reporting. Your channels understand where the business is coming from. You know, even as far down as you know, what sort of average order values do you get from different channels? What sales conversion rates do you get from different channels? You know, we use the we you know I personally do a lot of this. We I know that um you know, a lead, for example, for us from a recommendation or a partner yields a nearly an 80% conversion rate if we can sort of put a proposal in front of them, whereas something like SEO, once it drives a high volume of leads for us, you can get a lot, you can get a lot of tyre kickers. So maybe that's got a 30% conversion rate. But then it's a game of numbers, isn't it? Do you just go for more volume and sort of weed out and quantify the ones that, um, that aren't going to go ahead? Or do you, do you lean into the one that's got the highest conversion rate and put the money there? So I think it's also about allocation of spend rather than cutting as well. Is it allocated in the right place. Is it. Are we are we allocating it in the smartest way possible as well. And again that kind of comes back to your point loosely of reporting. How do you report what sort of personally reporting to. I'm quite data driven. I'm very I like a lot of data. I'm quite metric driven where some people aren't like that. But you still got to drive home the importance of each channel that you're doing and justifying the spending on it. If push comes to shove, at least you've got a clear plan of what's going to have the least amount of impact, so to speak. Um, I mean, what do you think are the key challenges for marketing and managing a marketing budget? And I guess from your point of view, Lucy, sort of working with some of our key clients. What do you expect to see over the coming years in terms of marketing budgets and reporting and the scrutiny that we might be put under us about? 

Lucy Bradley

Yeah. I think one thing classic answer is related to AI, and I think you touched on it earlier, but it's clients having sort of the perception that we can do more in less time, which is true to a certain extent, but we still require that expertise. And it's not just a case of AI is going to do it for us. There's there's so much that we would need to put into that. And I've seen a bit of you kind of stats and whatnot recently on, but clients think that's going to solve impact agency fees, i.e. they're going to get the same level of service they're getting now for cheaper, and it's not quite as black and white as that. 

Pete Bingham

Yeah, I think when whenever new technology comes along, you know, new social platforms, AI or whatever, um, it's always going to challenge marketing and those on a tight budget because they're going to see this as the holy grail. And as you say, you know, uh, make things cheaper or whatever was really it's just another tool. And, you know, tools come and go and, you know, some tools make things way easier. Some just solve a little problem with automation. But really that's been just means that, you know, you can just allocate more of that spend to doing more of the stuff that that time has taken up. You shouldn't then just go, oh, well, wipe that out because then you've got a competitive advantage, haven't you? Otherwise, then you're just cutting budget because you've made something quicker. Um, you know, uh, I would say one of the key challenges is at the moment, trying to stay informed of all this new tech. Um, you know, within marketing, we we can stay informed within our own sort of, you know, whether it's SEO, PPC, whatever. With with clients, they have to do that and also stay, uh, you know, ahead informed within their own industry and within their own technologies and innovation. So we I think we have to remember that they're seeing this thing probably through the eyes of the public, which is, you know, isn't AI fantastic. And I can create this thing and I no longer need you as opposed to actually it's just another tool. How can we use that to speed something up so we can allocate more spend and have a competitive advantage, you know? Um, I think that's where, like you say, one of the challenges would be the new tech, uh, and the perception of clients and the general public of, you know, how that will impact marketing budget. 

Rob Twells

Yeah, no, I agree. And something else that I often see is, is seasonal budget changes. Yeah. What do you what are your thoughts on seasonal budget? Do you think you should stop out of season? Do you think you should taper it down and up based on the demand, let's say regarding furniture, the clearly, clearly you can have a higher peak season. 

Pete Bingham

There is that that phrase isn't there. There's the phrase make hay when the sun shines. You know, it's just apt here that you know, when things are good, lean into it. Research, experiment. When you've got more, you know, more money coming in, you've got a bit more budget and whatever. The things that you can control, whatever, you know, lean into those and experiment whatever. And there's always going to be parts that are out of control, like, you know, market wobbles and economic worries and whatever. But when they come around, if you're making hay, when the sun shines, you're in a better position. You don't necessarily need to cut back. You can just you'll just have a plan for that. Um, you know how you use that. I don't know if it would be downtime or, you know, sort of just a slower season to, to prepare for the next busy season. Um, you know, seasonality means it's coming around again. It's not you're not never going to come around again. And just knowing that and planning for it again should be part of any roadmap. 

Lucy Bradley

Yeah. Have you seen that from any of our clients, Lucy? Um, I can't think of an example on the spot as such, but I think I was just going to mention, I think that's the importance of having those sorts of conversations with your clients and understanding when they're busier times are those quiet times making sure the team strategy aligns with that so that we've not got any any nasty surprises and we can really support that business. And there's a proper partnership with the client. And so I think really that's from my point of view, it just comes down to the communication, understanding the client and working with their challenges. 

Rob Twells

Yeah, yeah. I don't disagree with that. I think when it comes to seasonality, there's some parts of a budget that will naturally be cheaper anyway just because the demand isn't isn't there. So take PPC for example. There's going to be less people searching, less people clicking. Therefore it's going to be a cheaper cost to you. But I think some of the things that I've seen over the years that people want to stop all activity in the choir, actually some of the again, going back to that whole top of funnel thing, that can be quite difficult to justify. It's the top of funnel activity out of season that keeps you top of mind in season. And again, it's very, very difficult to justify that to stakeholders. But it's so important. 

Pete Bingham

It it sort of depends how how flexible your team is as well. Because if you can say, right, we're going to stop all activity for the next three months because traditionally we never get sales or we get low sales, then, you know, when peak season hits, how quick can you be? And is that really the best use of time to be scrambling just before peak season? Or should you have it all smoothly laid out, you know, prepared and whatnot? So, you know, having that agility within the team, which, you know, is where. You know, having an agency on your side is a benefit. Um, you know, I think will help in those, those slower periods and just have that planning in place. 

Rob Twells

Um, I think it's also good if you're a marketer within a seasonal business. It's also, you know, I think the mistake I often see is they treat the seasonal highs as the buying period, which is true, which is. Right. So let's take it again. I mean, the easy example is a garden company. Garden furniture company. Let's say, you know, their peak buying period will be let's say April through to August because that's when we get the sun. Hopefully not at the minute, but hopefully in the UK. But actually what they miss is the researching period. So I know my wife, for example, has been looking for stuff for our garden since last October and she's been on Instagram. She's been on Pinterest looking at inspiration, and she's got a list of brands that she will now inevitably buy from because of the research she did in the winter months. And it's the brands that put the time and effort in in those months that are going to win that race at the end of the day. And I think that's really important to to bear in mind if you're a seasonal company, is there's a massive research period before the buying period. And I think a lot of companies miss that. And, you know, that's where they start to taper down the marketing budget. But a lot of the awareness comes in those periods. So yeah, another reason to to be wary if you are looking at cutting costs if you're a seasonal business. 

Pete Bingham

It's a great example of that as well, because, you know, your wife sounds a bit like my spending my money before I have it, right? 

Rob Twells

Correct. 

Lucy Bradley

Um, I'm staying quiet. 

Rob Twells

You are that person. I can tell, yeah. Uh, anything you guys want to add about marketing budgets? Whether you know what to do when you're thinking about cutting or all that kind of stuff from just on your experience. 

Lucy Bradley

I think if you're working with an agency, just speak. Speak with your agency. Have a super honest chat about what's going on for you, what you're worrying about, see how the agency can plug the gaps, what information they can provide. Um, I think a lot of us are more than happy to be very agile in our approach and tweak things. It's not a cuz you're tied to this contract. That's it. We're not willing to chop and change things to work for you. It should definitely be a two way relationship. So I think the more communication that you can have, um, somewhat like I think something we do is the quarterly business reviews, which help to look at those sort of things that are coming up, rather than getting stuck in the sort of day to day or the monthly meetings. It helps to have those conversations that might help for those longer term plans, seasonality, those sorts of things. So, yeah, just lean on lean on your agency or try and have those meetings in house if if you are handling your your marketing in-house. 

Pete Bingham

Yeah. Yeah. I mean I would say. Make make. I mean, this is talking from an agency point of view. Make them own the marketing as much as you do. You know, um, you mentioned relationships and that's something where they're very keen to, to, um, to, to, to form the digital maze, a good relationship with our clients. And it is a two way thing, like you say. So you have to make them own the marketing as much as you do. There's almost some perception, I think, with agencies like we've handed all the marketing over to them, let's see what they come back with. And really, that doesn't help. That doesn't help anybody, you know, um, you know, we've all had clients that, you know, don't respond to emails, never pick up the phone. We struggled to get them in meetings or whatever. Um, and that that can be a huge, a huge problem. Um, you know, the other thing is I think as agencies, um, you know, within marketing, whatever, some, uh, marketing, um, folk might be a little bit scared to tell clients or account managers when things aren't working. You know, they've noticed something, but perhaps, you know, so worried about keeping a client or a boss happy, we're afraid to challenge them, deliver bad news. But, you know, don't don't be better communication. Make them own the marketing and really embrace that. You know, relationship is a two way thing and it benefits everybody when you're open and transparent. And not all not all clients are nice. We have very many lovely clients. Um, some clients are harder than others. Some clients are very communicative and some aren't. So, you know, you have to really work on that, that relationship, um, you know, and address those disconnects and get them on board.

Rob Twells
I agree, and going back to the very first point that Lucy mentioned about sort of, you know, it's not new anymore, but, you know, digital marketing becoming a thing all those years ago and becoming much more data driven. I think the relationship between, in our case, agency and client and in other cases where it's internal and stakeholder, I think the communication, the sandwich between the two is so, so important now communicating the benefits. And you know, there's so many different channels now. It's not just. Marketing is not a blanket thing. Lots of different channels and I think communication is the right thing to do. And then you can make the right informed decisions about the next steps. And in some cases it might be cut the budget. In most cases I would, you know, hang my hat on it not being the right thing to do. Um, so yeah, that brings that to a nice conclusion, I think. So just to round things off, for anybody that hasn't listened, we have something called The Room 301 challenge. Now the Room 301 um, well. 301 first of all is it's how a 301 redirect is, how an SEO pro tells a search engine that a page no longer exists, or has moved to somewhere else. So what we've done is we've taken that theory and we've created the three room 301 challenge, and we ask our guests, what thing in marketing would you redirect away, get rid of forever? It's not going back. Nothing and stuck with you. 

Lucy Bradley

Mine isn't necessarily just focused on marketing, but we'll look at it in a marketing point of view. Um, and it's sort of the perception that the customer is always right. So I would. Um, so challenge that and say. A client doesn't get us on board for us to tell them that always right. And they're always correct. They are hiring us for our expertise, our experience. And sometimes that means challenging a client's opinion or how they want to drive the strategy. That doesn't mean, you know, you have to say you're wrong. My way is right. But it's just again, having that communication and feeling as though you can challenge what your what your client's saying, um, to get to get the best out of out of the strategy, the results. Um, I read a stat recently and it was 36% of clients want their agency to push boundaries more. And I think that really links into that. People are wanting more value and more out of their agencies, and part of that comes from sometimes push pushing back and say, this is what we actually think is going to be the best thing for you. 

Rob Twells

So yeah, I agree. I think the best the best relationships, whether it's again, stakeholder internal client agency is always. Stick to what you know, our expertise or the marketers expertise is in marketing, but you know, your expertise or the stakeholders expertise is in the industry, the sector, the business and the combination of the two can be really powerful. But when one person tries to do both things, it becomes a bit messy. So just, you know, if you all work together, collaborate, lean into your strengths, you'll get good results. But if one person or one individual wants to sort of be the all, be the marketer, be the the knowledge, the industry, the business as well. and overpower everybody else as inputs. Yeah, you're going to get sticky results. So no, I agree. I think challenging is is one of your strong points Lucy. Definitely. Pete?

Pete Bingham

Uh, I'm very fortunate to already have a, uh, a, um, something in room 301, but, um, I've got plenty. So, um, last time it was, um, you know, people who use AI badly or, you know, don't don't think about the consequences. We've already talked about that. But, um, again, for me, it's it's it's people, not the general public or anything like that, but, um, something that happens in our industry is that we, you know, we're always chasing the next thing or we're chasing our own tail or whatever, you know? Oh, they've done that. Uh, we should be doing that. Google leaked this, which means we now have to change our entire strategy. Um, this business saw success with this, and you've got to remember that you're only seeing a fraction of the data, you're not seeing the full story. And we can be really quick to have these knee jerk reactions and dismiss our own data or an audience in favor of, you know, keeping up with the Joneses. Um, you know, that's not to say don't look at your competitors, don't experiment and don't keep up to date with industry changes or whatever, but a good strategy. Has both data and, uh, an understanding of that unique business's challenges at its core. And, you know, I think you should always work within that idea, you know, evolve your own strategy, not somebody else's. Um, you know, don't just go chasing the latest thing. That doesn't mean you can't experiment, doesn't mean you can't get inspiration from these things. But there's a lot of that that happens in our industry. And, you know, the latest Google leak. Oh, wow. Now it's, you know, clicks and links. Well, I think it's always been those things. It's just, you know, if you haven't fed them into your strategy and haven't been paying attention, then you're always sort of trying to change and adjust and whatever. And that's not really how you build a strategy. Um, so that, yeah, people chasing trends and, you know, not really following through with the strategy, not really using the data, looking for the bigger picture and seeing the whole story, just assuming just because someone else is doing it, it's going to work for them. And that can be very dangerous I think. 

Rob Twells

Thank you very much. So look that is two things going straight into room 3011 is not challenging stakeholders or clients. And the second one is I'm going to say following trends, particularly trends that blow up on social media, particularly Twitter. Ok well thank you Pete. Thank you Lucy. Thank you for everyone who is listening. Uh, we've been the digital maze. You can catch more about us on the Digital Macomb. We run webinars monthly. We release podcasts. Uh, there's lots of content on our website, so feel free to take a look. We'll go into these topics in in more detail on there, and we'll catch you again soon. 

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Rob Twells

Co-Founder & Managing Director

Rob is the Founder of an award winning digital agency (since forming a digital agency group The Digital Maze with Boom Online) specialising in eCommerce, SEO, PPC, CRO, digital strategy and web design. With over 10+ years in the marketing space, Rob has been involved with hundreds of marketing projects and campaigns with some of the best known brands.

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