Room 301: Opening Digital Doors – The Power of Accessibility in eCommerce

Listen on your chosen podcast player

Watch it on YouTube

Subscribe to our YouTube Channel

Resources

Some of the resources mentioned in the podcast, as well as some of our own.

• Follow Bet Hannon on LinkedIn and Bluesky
• AccessiCart – Learn all about the fantastic work AccessiCart do
• WCAG – Web Content Accessibility Guidelines
• The European Accessibility Act 2025 – New accessibility legislation coming into force this year
• Watch our webinar on web accessibility
• Dragon Dictation – Speech recognition technology from Nuance Communications.
• BaseCamp – Project management and online collaboration software
• Trello – Kanban-style, list-making application developed by Atlassian (and a firm favourite here at The Digital Maze too!)

Disclaimer: These resources shared are based solely on the experiences of the podcast guest. This is not a sponsored segment or an endorsement.

A Podcast for Marketing Directors & Marketing Leaders

Room 301 is a monthly marketing podcast brought to you by The Digital Maze, a specialist full service digital marketing agency. We discuss ongoing themes, topics and news in the digital marketing industry to help marketing manager (and business leaders) stay ahead of the curve.

---

More Episodes of Room 301

Podcast Transcription

Rob Twells (00:01)
Bet, hello and thank you for being on Bet, why is it so important for e-commerce websites to be accessible?

Bet Hannon (00:09)
Yeah, so I think there are three reasons why you should make your website accessible, why your e-commerce site should be accessible. One is that if you're not accessible, you're losing money. Globally, people with disabilities represent about $8 trillion in disposable income. When you extend that to their friends and families, it's $13 trillion. If you're not accessible, you're missing out on some of that spending.

Two, it's the law increasingly in a lot of places. So the EU, we can talk more about the European Accessibility Act. And that's if you sell to Europeans, it's not where your business is based, like GDPR. There's laws in the United States, there's laws in the UK, then Canada, other places all around the world. So it's the law. And three, there's an aspect of karma about this, right? If you're lucky enough to not die suddenly, you'll

probably develop a disability. And so it's kind of about what you want for your future self or what you want for your parents or your spouse or your kids if they develop a disability. Do you want people to be able to do this? And create a place where people can interact and have human dignity and independence.

Rob Twells (01:26)
Absolutely. Tell me more about the legal side of it. So obviously a lot of our listeners are based in the UK. So how much do you know about the laws around it in the UK and what might be to come over the next maybe 12 months or so?

Bet Hannon (01:38)
Yeah, so while in some other places, like that EU law is really new, in the UK, the laws around accessibility come from like around 2010 and a little bit later. So they're kind of early a little bit. But yeah, there are laws on the books in the UK about making sure that your website is accessible. Now, there are stricter standards almost everywhere for government sites.

as opposed to private business. But increasingly private business is being held to account for those kinds of things in the UK. we all over the world, pretty, there's the way that you, the technical pieces for understanding web accessibility is called the website content accessibility guidelines. We sometimes say WCAG, W-C-A-G.

We're now on version 2.2, but all over the world, people look at 2.1 and AA. There's three levels, single A, double A, triple A. Each one up includes everything at the bottom, but the middle level is where all the legal standards are. And so it's kind of like, you know, I think sometimes people get a little, you know, discombobulated thinking, there are these.

things all over the world and you have to pay attention to and it's really just looking at those guidelines and kind of working to make your site conform to those guidelines and that'll cover you most places.

Rob Twells (03:11)
Awesome. So I've got one more question actually before we jump on to key questions. And we didn't discuss this previously, so hopefully it doesn't catch you off guard. So put yourselves in the shoes of a marketing manager, marketing director, somebody who holds a marketing budget that's been given to them from a CEO or whatever it might be. What argument would you give for them spending money on making their website accessible when seemingly that is often put towards the bottom of the list, isn't it? So what's the case for

Bet Hannon (03:13)
Yeah.

Rob Twells (03:41)
Absolutely, so what's the case for doing it?

Bet Hannon (03:44)
Yeah, it often is de-prioritized. And I think what I see when I'm looking at companies that are doing things versus not doing things is that looking at the revenue piece is companies tend not to have enough resources, not just financial, but also people resources to deal with accessibility until they hit, and I'm sorry, this is going to be US terms, about $2 million, US dollars,

translate that for your in revenue, right? And it's that you have to get things off the ground. I mean, there's so many other things you have to get things off the ground and you have to that you have to attend to to get to that point. It's really when you kind of get to that level of maturity as a company that then you can start to really that accessibility should come on the radar. Partly, you know, the argument for doing it with the C suite is going to be that revenue building, right? So

There are some studies out that show that you can 1.6x your revenue when you're making things accessible. So that's big, right? It can be a revenue boost. can almost always when you're improving accessibility, you're improving SEO, right? Because you have to do semantic structure and you have to do alt text on your image, all those things. So it improves SEO. But also, it improves the user experience for all your users. We sometimes call that the curb-cut effect, like those little ramps on the sidewalk that were put in there for people with wheelchairs or scooters, but they help people on bikes or people with strollers or people pulling their luggage, that it helps everybody. So it can make a great user experience boost. It can also be a good way to build your brand. If anything about your brand is about being inclusive.

then this is just like a part of your brand and you need to be thinking about that. And then it can also be a way to retain existing customers. like I said earlier, know, like the chances that someone will develop a disability as they age are great. And it almost always costs less to keep your current customers than it is to acquire new ones. And so if you can keep those current customers as they are starting to develop disabilities. And we, mean, some of that is not just

Rob Twells (06:02)
you

Bet Hannon (06:11)
you know, diagnosed disabilities, but things like as we age, you know, it gets harder to see the small print, but also color perception changes as the lens of the eye starts to yellow and so color contrast starts to be important. So if your demographic is people over 50, you know, that's huge for trying to make sure you're having a good experience there for those folks. So for all those reasons, you would begin to think about doing that. But, you know, it's kind of like,

Rob Twells (06:34)
Thank

Bet Hannon (06:40)
If you're at the beginning of your, as a company, it's probably not going to be as high. Although I would argue that you should be paying some attention to that, right? There are some basics that everybody can learn that are not hard to implement and yeah.

Rob Twells (06:55)
I thought

that was fantastic answer actually. love the way you spoke about, know, because C-suite at the end of the day, they are going to care most about what will it return, what's the revenue return going to be. But actually there's so many intangible benefits to making a website accessible. And something I didn't even consider, like the SEO side of things, really important. It can add a lot of weight to it. Brand side, the retention, I think, yeah.

you've made a really good case there to start thinking about accessibility for anybody listening who hasn't already gone through that.

Bet Hannon (07:28)
Well, and

I think, you know, let's talk about sometimes there, when I said, you know, there are some really simple things, there are some pretty, like we call them low hanging fruit. Like there's some relatively easy things, not necessarily super technical that people can begin to do in-house and begin to start building in in-house. So for instance, even if you haven't been doing it previously and you have a backlog, right?

start making sure you're putting good alt text on your images, right? Start making sure that you're putting things in with a semantic heading structure. Down the page, you never skip from an H2 to an H4, you always, but you're putting those pieces in there, that you're not putting in vague link text. So when you have a link, that the text that you make into a link, it should be people who are blind and use screen readers often have their screen reader just read out loud to them the link text.

So they're scanning for content, just like we would scan visually. But if all it says is click here, click here, click here, it tells them nothing. And so alt text, heading structure, link text, and color contrast. And those are not super hard. Maybe the color contrast is a little bit. There are these free checkers everywhere on the web. So just starting now to create.

Rob Twells (08:31)
I was about to say, do you mean… I think, yeah, yeah.

Bet Hannon (08:48)
even if you don't worry about the backlog of what you've created, just starting, stopping, creating new inaccessible content can go a long way, right?

Rob Twells (08:50)
Yes.

I was going to say the backlog is one thing, but actually most people, 99 % of people listening to this can probably start doing everything you just mentioned then from tomorrow.

Bet Hannon (09:06)
Yeah, and the key is to think about how you're going to put this into your systems so that you're kind of like remember it. It becomes habit, but it's also kind of a systems check. And it's people who are designers that need to pay attention to this and people who are content managers, as well as I think people often just think, it's only a developer thing. So it is a developer thing at some levels. But those beginning things are really much more

Rob Twells (09:18)
Yeah.

Bet Hannon (09:35)
marketing and design people or content and design.

Rob Twells (09:37)
It's really interesting

because often when we start talking to a new client and we're looking at their website, often their brand palette is actually inaccessible. We'll also audit their brand palette and you can't actually make their website accessible because the colours within their brand just don't work together. So we often have to deliver bad news around that, is always quite interesting.

Bet Hannon (09:57)
And yeah,

it can be a real challenge. And that's what, you know, I think when we're doing, we've tried to, we'll talk a little later about what we do, but when we're trying to do some consulting for development, we try to do that in some, throughout the project. we'll work initially, we'll for instance, talk with.

with the developers about what are the features that being planned and where might you find some gotchas that you didn't want to pay attention to, things like, it's really hard, date pickers are always hard, for example. They may not be aware of that. so talking about that. But then design is the next one, right? get the mockups and the design assessed for accessibility before you get the client to approve them, because it's really hard to go back. sometimes there's a…

There's a saying in the accessibility community that if you don't put accessibility into the project from the beginning, then it's kind of like trying to bake a muffin and put the blueberries in later.

It is hard and expensive. It the most expensive way to do accessibility. is to tack it on at the end as something we will do a little QA check on later.

Rob Twells (11:18)
100%. Well, let's move on to the three core questions. So the first question is called what's in your toolbox? Now, we're all busy running our businesses of different shapes and sizes with different amounts of team members, et cetera. Now, what are the things you use to stay organized, to stay on top of your workload?

Bet Hannon (11:37)
Yeah, so I have a number of productivity tools. would say one of the big ones for me is I use dragon dictation. like 15 years ago, had to have, over the course of two years, have thumb surgery repaired. So I spent a lot of time in cast embraces and typing was horrible. And so I learned to, I got, I,

I of tried, experimented with it a little bit. This is the early days of Siri, right? And so now I use Dragon Dictation on my desktop, and it is three times faster than typing for me. So I can dictate into everything. And people start to do this, can start to do this a little bit on their mobile devices too, right? You use Google Voice or Siri to kind of like just dictate an email or whatever. It's way, now there's still errors. You have to kind of like correct for errors and every once in a while something will be.

weirdly. I won't catch something and it'll go through weirdly. But, but while that is, that's been a game changer for me in terms of, you know, I dictate into, you know, our team uses base camp and sometimes I'm having to leave a response and, I can dictate that on and move, move pretty.

Rob Twells (12:50)
Nice, allows you to get through messages, emails, know, two times right.

Bet Hannon (12:54)
Everything.

Yeah. And then I use Siri a lot on my phone too for that too. Even texts and stuff.

Rob Twells (13:02)
You mentioned you used base camp sort of product management, project management for different projects and team communication, etc. How do you find that?

Bet Hannon (13:14)
pretty good. It works pretty well for what we need it to do. And we have some Zapier Zap set up. So we use FreshDesk as a ticketing system for clients. Although that's diminishing a little bit, but we have that FreshDesk. And so when a new FreshDesk ticket is created, it creates a new to do in Basecamp so that we can kind of manage our side of the communication. This is, you know,

without the client seeing it, right? And then we can agree on who's going to reply to the client or how that's going to get taken care of. And yeah, so I like.

Rob Twells (13:50)
I'm using Basecamp many years ago, I imagine the products evolved a hell of a lot since then.

Bet Hannon (13:56)
You know, they keep pushing out some new features. Like in the last couple of years, they put a Trello-like board up. It's still got a little bugs occasionally there and there, but you know, that's been really helpful. We have one team member who really likes the Trello. We used to do stuff in Trello a lot, and we moved to Basecamp. And then that person missed Trello a lot. And so when the board came to Basecamp, they were excited.

Rob Twells (14:03)
nice. Yeah, I usually do.

Awesome, so next question. I'm big believer in the more you fail, the more you learn. You were telling me a bit about your journey from a web development agency to where you are now. I it was super interesting. I imagine in that journey there's been a lot of failures and times where you've gone wrong, but it's all led to where you are now. So what are some times you've failed? And there is bonus points here if it's funny, but if it's not, it doesn't matter.

Bet Hannon (14:53)
I

don't have any funny ones. have sad ones, but I have any funny ones. I think, you know, I don't know that it was a big kind of dramatic failure, but I think when I think about what I wish I had done differently was understanding really the need to niche and be distinctive much earlier. I think for a long time, I worked really hard to sell us.

Rob Twells (14:55)
That was…

Bet Hannon (15:21)
as this generic web development agency out there with the thousands and thousands of other generic web development agencies.

Rob Twells (15:28)
think

it's a good opportunity for you to just explain a little bit about where you came from and how the business evolved to where it is now, if that's okay.

Bet Hannon (15:32)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I had a, I'm older than I look, I had a first career in nonprofit management. And then, and then I was doing, and I was doing techie geekie things at the last couple of places that I worked. And in 2008, at the beginning of the financial crisis here in the States, my position got downsized. And it was okay. Kids were, I needed to be home with kids a little bit. That was fine too. But I kind of stumbled into freelancing.

Rob Twells (15:43)
Okay.

Bet Hannon (16:07)
It was like this light bulb. It never occurred to me that you could do that fun techie, the things I really enjoyed, the techie geeky things, and people would pay you for it. I was like, wow. And so I then kind of stumbled into pulling it together as an agency pretty quickly after that. But yeah, we did general WordPress development for a long time. And out of my nonprofit connections, a lot of our first clients were nonprofits, but we kind of grew that over time.

And then realizing that whole experience of we had a client that needed accessibility. And they're actually still a client. They're a division of the government of the state of California. And they needed accessibility. And they wanted our team to be able to support them day to day in that. And so our team, they helped us get some training. And it was like this light bulb moment for our team. Like, we understand what this is. And it impacts people we know and love.

Rob Twells (16:42)
can.

Bet Hannon (17:05)
And it just created this sense of purpose for us. So since that time, we've been of turning the aircraft carrier of where we're focused. But even then, think I didn't under, like, we'll do more with accessibility. But then it was like, okay, amorphously. then realizing, maybe like, so that was 10 years ago that we had the client that kind of helped us get going. And then just like three or three.

two or three years ago, realizing, oh, most people who work in this space do government or higher education, but 80 % of the lawsuits in the United States for web accessibility are e-commerce. Nobody's doing e-commerce stuff. so, kind of beginning to focus there. And then even then, after that, there's more like, oh, you don't think about…

Rob Twells (17:49)
Okay, that's

Bet Hannon (18:01)
I think, okay, it'll be a limiting thing. You're worried about it because when you start to niche, you feel like, I'm going to be turning down other things and you're like anxious and then realizing, there's like when you get to that place and you sort of look out further and you go, there's even further niching that could be done. There's even, you know, I could even think about other ways that this could be more focused, right, in terms of what we do. And so I think that's my mistake is that I didn't understand how that niching worked.

Rob Twells (18:28)
I had to tell you.

How have you found that transition? admittedly, we've not been as focused or as narrowed as maybe we could be. And probably due to the same reasons you've just said there, in terms of my, I suppose my fear of, you know, turning down the opportunities. How have you found that transition?

Bet Hannon (18:51)
think the

thing that I didn't understand, Rob, was that there's how you position yourself and market yourself, what you say you do, and then there's what you're choosing to take on, right? Which is not necessarily public, right? And so when you say, I'm only gonna do

Rob Twells (19:00)
Yeah, yeah.

Bet Hannon (19:20)
Accessibility for e-commerce, like the marketing piece is we focus on this, we focus on this. Well, the reality is you're still going to get inbound stuff for government or higher ed or whatever, and you have to kind of choose what's there, right? So if the pipeline isn't very full for e-commerce, maybe I'm still going to take on those things, even while I'm still positioning myself in marketing this way, right? And then at a certain point,

Rob Twells (19:45)
Thank

Bet Hannon (19:49)
you have to start making those choices and you have to start turning down that work, but it's not until you have more of a clear full pathway. Does that make sense? And I think that's true for a lot of folks when they're starting to niche, right? You say, we're going to work with this type of client. You don't turn down other, I mean, you guys still have to keep the lights on, right? You have to like, so you don't turn down other work until the pipeline is full enough of those kinds of clients that you start seeing.

Rob Twells (19:57)
Yeah, no it does, yeah, it's a-

and some.

Bet Hannon (20:16)
But it's when you start saying no that then you really are kind of moving a little bit further down that path.

Rob Twells (20:21)
It's working. It's working when you say no.

Excellent. So the last part of the podcast is where we put something in marketing that we really don't like, really grinds our gears, really annoys us into Room 301 So, but before we talk more about accessibility and your business, what is one thing about marketing, and I'm going to take a wild guess as to what it might be, one thing about marketing that really annoys you?

Bet Hannon (20:44)
Mmm.

just people that put inaccessible crap out on the web. Like, like, here's, here's a case, here's something I encountered in the last few months, right? So it's a, a new startup that wants to do gender neutral clothing, which is kind of a really kind of cool concept, right? And so they're doing, yeah. And they're putting that out there, except that I don't know what they did.

Rob Twells (20:52)
Knew it.

Bet Hannon (21:17)
to their Shopify site, you can't keyboard to navigate. So people who are blind and people who are mobility, can't use a mouse because they're mobility impaired, they have to depend on keyboard navigation. You can't get, you can get to the product page, but you can't ever select a variation. You can't ever tab into choosing a pattern, a fabric or a pattern or color of the shirt. So you can never buy anything from their website. And I was like, you gotta be kidding me. That's just sort of like a basic thing.

Yeah, so that ticks me off. And what ticks me off about it is that that means for someone with a disability to buy that product, if they really wanna buy that product, then they have to have a family member or friend come back later to help them get that purchase made. So the likelihood of actually getting that to happen because of all the other things that they have to do to get help from family.

is there, but if they do, just represents one more time that their independence and kind of human dignity is assaulted. And that hurts my heart.

Rob Twells (22:27)
I imagine you see this day in day out given what you do.

Bet Hannon (22:32)
All the time. All the time. And it's, don't think

people are being intentionally, you know, just, it's just like, but it's kind of like, you know, I think of accessibility as kind of like holding the door open for, you know, like when you have a customer coming into your coffee shop with their arms full of packages, you want them to come in and buy their coffee, but you're going to open the door for them to get in because their arms are full, right? So it's kind of like, open the door. Like, why would you?

build a shop and then keep people out.

Rob Twells (23:03)
Absolutely. So just to follow on from that, from what you see, what are the most common barriers people with disabilities face when using e-commerce websites?

Bet Hannon (23:14)
Well, those four things that we talked about before, the alt text, the link text, the heading structure, the color contrast, those are really basic issues that happen all the time. And they can be impactful for folks. And it's important to understand that some of those things can be found with automated checking.

So there are a few automated tools that can help you start to check for accessibility, but they only find about 30 % of issues. And so one of the things that we see a lot that people don't catch a lot of times because it's not a part of these automated tools or the overlays, that's a whole new another conversation about why those are terrible, but those overlays can't fix keyboard navigation problems, right? So those have to be checked for manually and

Rob Twells (23:48)
Okay.

Bet Hannon (24:10)
You just have to kind of begin to look at that.

Rob Twells (24:14)
You just mentioned, we've nearly gone on a whole episode about mentioning this word, but you've just mentioned automation. How do you feel with things like that?

Bet Hannon (24:21)
Yes, you were trying

to get away without mentioning automation.

Rob Twells (24:25)
Yeah,

so how do things like, or in your view, how do you think things like AI might impact accessibility? Where do you think it's going to go with that?

Bet Hannon (24:31)
Yeah, so AI

is already impacted. I mean, even in the even before the last year impacted accessibility. So when you see automated captions that like I assume when you upload this to YouTube, you're going to turn on the captions and you're going to have those captions there, right? That's huge. so so those that automated captions means that you didn't have to pay a person to sit down and caption this bit, type out the captions for this video.

Rob Twells (24:46)
Yeah.

Bet Hannon (25:00)
Now, the important thing is AI, like we have all been learning, is not always 100 % right. And so when you upload, when you turn on those captions, for instance, you're going to want to check through them because sometimes, especially when there's like any technical things or, but sometimes it can just be embarrassingly wrong, right, in terms of what it puts out there in terms of the caption. But AI is letting people do Zoom captions for meetings. And so people who are, have hearing issues can,

can use those, I'll admit sometimes when my, I've had recently an issue a few weeks ago with my router here at home, that meant that people were, like the sound was dropping, right? And so now I'm turning on captions. So it's another example of how these accessibility things impact us all. I turn on the captions so I made sure I got everything even when their sound was glitchy. So turning on those kinds of things. We do see there are some tools, for example, for,

AI generation of alt text. So if you think about a situation where there's an e-commerce site, they've got 5,000 products, and each of those products have three or four images, but none of them have alt text, that's going to be a huge job, right? And so there are some tools to automatically generate the alt text. Now, it's important to remember that, again, the image recognition

Rob Twells (26:15)
Go.

Bet Hannon (26:25)
Quality is not always great. We have this great image that I use sometimes in presentations of a dad playing with a toddler on the beach. I assume the dad anyway, a man playing with a toddler on the beach. But the AI generation was scary people in masks. And I'm like, that's not even close, right? And so, you know, making sure that you're, you know, going back, use the AI to draft those, but then come back. Do remember though, that a lot

Rob Twells (26:42)
Ha

Bet Hannon (26:55)
You know, a lot of things for alt text, for example, the alt text is not just describing the image in a kind of sterile way, but it's related to the context, right? So the alt text gives people the flavor. mean, a lot of times we choose images for flavor, right? And so you want to use the alt text that kind of conveys that. Is it more educational in tone? Is it more emotional in tone, right? And then

Product alt text is its own special category because you're not just describing what's happening in the in the image You know four friends sitting around a campfire You're describing the product the fleece vests that they're wearing right and so you you're you're zeroing in on the product and its description and then you need to think about well Have you been? relying on the image

to convey things about this product that really should go in the product description. So, like, does the vest fall at the waist or at the hips, right, or below the hip, right, where, like, all of those things that we would visually see right away, maybe stuff needs to go into the product description and not necessarily in the alt text. So, there's a great, we had Meg Miller from our team wrote a great post on our website about product alt.

Rob Twells (27:54)
Yeah.

Bet Hannon (28:20)
kind of special.

Rob Twells (28:22)
Well, I really enjoyed this conversation. know the team at the Digital Maze, we ran a webinar last year on accessibility. We wrote a really in-depth blog about it. I know it's a real hot topic here, particularly because as you quite rightly said at the start of the episode, it's becoming compulsory rather than an option. So I've really enjoyed this conversation. I think this is something that would really be useful for our listeners. So, but tell us more about your business and where our listeners can find out more.

Bet Hannon (28:26)
Yeah!

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So ExcessiveCard is set up to come alongside either in-house teams or agencies to provide that level of expertise, so subject matter experts. So we come in, we provide testing. So we're doing some automated testing because you want to leverage that when you can. We're providing, we have a team of people that we work with. There's a B Corp that's hired blind women to do testing. So we're able to bring some

user testing by people with disabilities, and that's important, and then our own in-house experts that are able to do additional testing. And then we're pulling all that data together, collating it, prioritizing it, that's important, because you want to work on the most impactful issues first. Not only the most, in terms of a barrier for people with disabilities, but the things that are more likely to get you sued, right? So we can help you prioritize those things, or sued or complaints, right, file?

So we can help you prioritize those and then serve as kind of consultants for helping the in-house team or the agency fix those things and then validating the fix. In the US, as you know, it's all about people suing one another. And so those monthly report, we do some kind of monthly pieces and those reports can be begin to be a legal defense. We think that they'll probably be a legal defense in the UK too. And generally speaking, I think,

Most of these enforcement agencies, the people that doing the enforcement, whether that's courts or whatever, what they really want to see is that you have some commitment, even if it's not big, they want to see that you have good faith effort to trying to work on accessibility over time. So you want to figure out ways that if you're working on accessibility that you're documenting that. Don't just sort of like do it and then occasionally or whatever, but you want to document it, even if you're doing it occasionally.

not just documenting it all. So we're coming alongside to provide that. And we package that up in a couple different ways. We do some consulting for development projects. Sometimes people will need to do a remediation project, not a redesign, but just fix the accessibility issues. And so we can help with that. then accessibility is something that is kind of like SEO. It has to be maintained over time. You have to…

Anytime the website changes, anytime new content is added, anytime things are changed, anytime even like plugins or software is updated, new accessibility issues can come into play. And so you want to be regularly checking on that. So we have an accessibility maintenance plan where we do that and we produce that monthly reporting that can be helpful. yeah, I try to think about ways that we can partner, because I think about it as partnering to help guide people.

Rob Twells (31:33)
Well, I think you're going be very busy over the next few years as this becomes more and more of hot topic. Your website, by the way, is that the best place for people to go? What is the URL?

Bet Hannon (31:39)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Accessicart.com. Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Twells (31:45)
Lovely.

Well, Bet, thank you so much for being here. I've loved hearing about your journey. I think it's been a really insightful conversation. So yeah, very grateful for you. It's actually 6am, where Bet is as well. So sip away at your coffee. So yeah, very grateful for getting up so early and speaking with myself.

Bet Hannon (32:04)
As we're working with more folks in the EU, I'm up early for these meetings all the time. So I'm a morning person, not a bad. But it's been lovely to hang out with you and yeah, love to keep in touch.

Rob Twells (32:12)
Well, thank you.

Brilliant. Well, thank you so much. And thank you everyone for listening. We'll catch you again in two weeks' time, I believe. So yeah, see you all again soon.