Is Your Brand Really Different? The Secret to Standing Out, with Tim Elliott

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Resources

Some of the resources mentioned in the podcast, as well as some of our own.

• Follow Tim on LinkedIn
• Claude AI – Conversational AI developed by Anthropic, designed for thoughtful, safe, and helpful interactions across a range of tasks.
• Substack – Publishing platform that enables writers to create newsletters, build audiences, and monetize through subscriptions.
• Canva – Graphic design tool offering easy-to-use templates for social media, presentations, posters, and more.
• Notebook LM – AI-powered research assistant by Google that helps users organize, summarize, and interact with their notes and documents.

Disclaimer: These resources shared are based solely on the experiences of the podcast guest. This is not a sponsored segment or an endorsement.

A Podcast for Business Owners & Marketing Leaders

Room 301 is a monthly marketing podcast brought to you by The Digital Maze, a specialist full service digital marketing agency based in Derby. We discuss ongoing marketing themes, topics and news in the digital marketing industry to help marketing managers (and business leaders) stay ahead of the curve.

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Podcast Transcription

Rob Twells (00:01)

Dani, so people don't buy products, they buy solutions to their problems. What, in your mind, is the biggest mistake that companies make when positioning their products?

Dani McNabb (00:13)

So the biggest mistake I see when I'm joining businesses or speaking to businesses about the things that they're doing and how they're positioning is a lot of times the way that they're positioning is about their features rather than the benefits for the end user. What a system does, say for example, me as a consumer, what a system does, I'm not interested in what it does, I'm interested in what it's going to do to solve a problem for me. So I think there's...

a lot that can be said around storytelling in particular for products. And storytelling for tech products is in particularly a big challenge because you're selling something that's not going to immediately impact someone's life. You it's not something tangible that a person can hold. It's something that's just going to quietly be in the background and make someone's life better. And if it's not right, or if you're not positioning it right, you're just not going to sell it. Whereas if you get the messaging right,

And you're telling people what it's going to do to solve their problems. It can just have such a phenomenal difference in uptake and customers resonating with the story that you're telling them.

Rob Twells (01:22)

So from a B2B perspective, I know what I know about you. You're trying to get the software, you promote and market in front of big, huge organisations. What sort of channels do you use to project that message and tell that story?

Dani McNabb (01:39)

So a lot of the things that we do within our marketing to promote ourselves is, you know, we do the typical things. There's LinkedIn advertising, there's SCA, there's events and things like that. But the business that I work in, we've been in the market for a long time. A lot of what we rely on is in particular because we are in the building society market in the UK. Building societies speak to building societies. So...

They need to know that who they're working with is somebody that's reputable, somebody that's well known, somebody that's going to take them seriously, and somebody that's going to ultimately treat them as a partner rather than a customer. So it depends. So one of the products I work on is very much word of mouth, people saying good things about him. And the other one is about industry standing. So one of the other products I work on is based in the United States and how we position there again is totally different because it's more of a FOMO approach in the United States, whereas here it's more.

So the products I work on are wildly different, but yeah, most of what we rely on is the words of our customers.

Rob Twells (02:47)

And you mentioned in the, before we start recording, we're having a bit of a chat there. and you just mentioned there, you sort of have products that are based in the US. I think you said you worked in France and Paris as well. So have you noticed any cultural differences in terms of how you try and take your product to market between those different areas?

Dani McNabb (03:04)

Huge,

huge differences. So the business that I currently work for, we have 1500 clients in 80 countries, literally all across the world. And how you position is so different. And it's interesting working for a French company and working on a UK product and a US product, because sometimes the way that someone centrally in France would position something would be wildly different than what the...

market locally is used to. So even the United States and the UK, know, there's the language is the same, but the spelling is different. And then how you approach even those two geographies is wildly different. Whereas we have clients in Europe, a lot of them are very similar, but still you move from even France to Switzerland, you've got a little bit of a change there, a little bit of a change in positioning. There's change in regulation, not hugely in Europe because a lot of Europe is

is governed by the same but even the UK to Europe now that we're you know post-Brexit we've got different regulation although some of it's similar there's nuances of it and then there's the nuances of language obviously if you're presenting somebody to a French business they don't they don't want to speak English and that's fine that's totally understandable just like somebody in the UK wouldn't want to be speaking French if you're presenting a product to them so

There's a lot of differences. There's a lot of differences in how you approach your clients. There's a lot of differences in how you speak to them, how you position your products. And it's really interesting working for a global business and seeing how different product marketers, people that are in my position would position things in Africa and how they would position things in the United States, in South America, in Northern Europe, et cetera. It's all wildly different. And to understand the nuances and why,

then kind of helps me if I'm thinking I've got this challenge I don't know how to overcome it and they tell me how they've overcome it a lot of it is well that won't work for me because of these reasons but I could try this this and this and then it's sort of problem solving and getting experience without having to make the failures first

Rob Twells (05:12)

That's super interesting. Do you look after any particular terrorists? Are you sort of in charge of UK and you know?

Dani McNabb (05:18)

So

we, with product marketing, we look after products and our products are sometimes geography based. One of the products I work on is a mortgage and savings platform that's in the UK, predominantly serves building societies. And the other two products that I work on work in a specialized finance. So that's around kind of leasing vehicles and odd-like equipment. That is, we hold a humongous chunk of the European market and expanding into the U S. So.

The products that I work across are predominantly Northern Europe, US and UK, but I have previously worked on another product that was predominantly Europe. So for us, it really depends on what product you're using rather than a set geography that you're in.

Rob Twells (06:03)

I you that makes sense. Well, it leads nicely into our first question. So everything you spoke about there has made me think you must be very busy on a day-to-day basis. And I before we start recording, you were telling me it's been a busy week. So the first question we always ask our guests is what's in your toolbox? Now, the people that I typically speak to in an interview on this show are busy. They're often managing teams. They've got big workloads, working in big companies, managing big marketing budgets, et cetera.

Dani McNabb (06:12)

Yeah.

Rob Twells (06:33)

There's lots of tools available to help us do our job. Now, what's in your toolbox? What do you use to stay on top of your workload, manage teams, manage campaigns, product marketing, et cetera?

Dani McNabb (06:44)

So this is gonna sound really silly, but this is coming from somebody who works in a big business and who specializes in a type of marketing. The biggest thing that helps us get things done is collaboration. I think as we had talked about before, when we were talking about getting together and having a conversation was kind of the power of a group. I have the experience of being...

the person who does marketing and does everything. And you know, have to know SEO and you have to know how to do design, websites, et cetera. But the thing that helps us get stuff done is I have a person that does, looks after the digital stuff.

I know digital stuff, so I know what she's doing, but when she makes recommendations to me, I take her recommendations. We've got a couple of ops people in the different geographies that we're in. I take their recommendations. That goes into my work. I take work that the design team has done. That goes in. But everything working in such a big business where you've got like 80 people that are in marketing and you have so many people that you can call upon and get so much little expertise. I don't have to worry about things at a granular level. I worry about product and I worry about how we position product.

but everything else kind of seeps into that. And if you've not worked in that before, it's really, really challenging to come into it. When I first came into the business, it was like, no, I want to have my hands in the search engine work we're doing. I want to have my hands in the LinkedIn work that we're doing. I want to kind of control it. And if you're used to being the marketing person, letting go and having people come in and bring their expertise is initially a challenge. But when you then see the

benefit that it brings you in the work that you are singularly doing, the work of everybody else influences the work that I do. And ultimately, I couldn't do the work that I do if it wasn't for all of the people around me.

Rob Twells (08:31)

a really good way to think about it. And then given that you are a global business, are you pretty much remote? you quite remote as a business? You know, working across the Zoom and Teams and whatnot.

Dani McNabb (08:43)

Um, yes and

no. So, um, certain people like me where I'm based in the North of England, the people that I work with are in the South of England. It's a bit of a trek to go in a couple of days a week. Um, I think as I was saying to you before we started recording, I'm in Paris more often than I am in an office in the UK. It is not like Emily in Paris. It is not that glamorous. It's, it's interesting. Yes, it's interesting. It's

Rob Twells (09:01)

It's not like Emily in Paris.

Dani McNabb (09:08)

It's challenging if you don't speak French and you've been trying to learn French for the last two years, that's an interesting challenge. But yeah, most of the time, it's difficult for me to get into an office because of geographically where I am. But at the same point, I work with people that are in a French office and they'll go in three days a week. And it's brilliant when you go into the central office in Paris, where the bulk of our marketing team is because there are so many people there. And the conversations you hear,

and the conversations you have are really, really valuable. And that is something that you do miss if you're working from home. But being as busy as I am, I can't drive. I can't drive nearly four hours down south to go to our office down there all the time. But I do make an effort to kind of get there a couple of times, you know, a few times a year, get to Paris a few times a year. So it's kind of more about timing that collaboration. But for our business in particular, it was important that somebody was in the UK.

spoke the language, understood it, because building societies, if you speak to somebody in France about building societies, they don't understand the difference between banks. understanding the market was a big challenge for the business when I came in and having someone here is helpful, but then when you have offices based here, there, and everywhere, it might not be possible to have somebody that goes into the office all the time. So maybe a unique case, but a lot of people are in our offices, product teams are all in the offices, and it is, as I say, great to...

to get in and speak to them.

Rob Twells (10:38)

Sure, so obviously you've pinpointed and highlighted collaboration as something that really helps you be productive. Now, I know it sounds like a lot of the team are based in the office, but how do you get yourself involved in that collaboration? Have you got any tools that you use to sort of foster that internally?

Dani McNabb (10:55)

Yeah, so mean, there's, obviously everything that we do is via Teams or some other sort of video conferencing thing. have everybody that in our business works across one board on Notion. We've created one nice big board where I can see everything that the content team are doing. I can see when it's due. If it involves me, I'm tagged in it. If it involves my product, I'm tagged in it. If I want to see what's another product working in, I can go and I can filter and I can go and look for it.

But having a big central repository where everything is kept. So, you know, if somebody's sick, say for example, things don't stop, everything keeps moving. And we do everything. We have SharePoint pages where we share all of the content that we've been building for our sales team. We put that up in a central location. So again, if I want to see something that somebody in France has been working on, I can go and I can see their latest files. But then we also have a secret kind of back folder where we keep our product marketing stuff, which is...

some of the more specific stuff that isn't potentially customer facing. And we document everything. And I think that is so important when you come in and you see that there's been no documentation done on something in a couple of years, maybe because the business is deemed that that part of the business wasn't a priority or maybe there wasn't somebody working there, whatever it might be, when you come in and you don't know what's been happening for the last two or three years, that's a challenge. So.

us having come in and seeing some of that in the last few years, those of us that have worked there four years plus have come in and know that challenge. it's, yes, we need to keep that document. We need to put that away somewhere. So that if something happens to me, somebody can go and review all of this and see everything that's happened in the last few years.

Rob Twells (12:40)

And do you use, selfishly asking this question, because it's something I'm looking at in a minute, and do you use anything in particular for documentation, or is it simply just a document, word document, whatever it might be?

Dani McNabb (12:50)

So there's a couple of different platforms that we've tried and used. We've, used Klue for a while for competitive analysis, but when you are a global business and a lot of your competitors have, are competitors for multiple products, that can be a challenge because if you have one big product and you update that portfolio, that profile on Klue, and it's all about that one product, my smaller product, I might come in and look at that and go, well, that's not of use. So.

We used Klue for a bit, it was good, but I think there are ways that we want to have a little bit more control over it, so we changed that. But a lot of what we do is we've created specific documents and specific ways of documenting things. And we keep, I don't it sounds kind of, I don't want to say that it sounds basic because it's not basic, but it's simple and it's there and it's cost effective. We put everything, we have hubs on SharePoint, we have a sales hub.

Everything that's to do with sales goes on that hub. Everything that's product goes on one hub. Everything that's product marketing goes on another hub. Everything that's field marketing goes on another hub. So there's just these big libraries of information. And I mean, it's simple, but if you set up SharePoint right, SharePoint is exactly what you need. You don't really need anything too wild and crazy. But then when you're talking about the stuff that goes out to customers, the one that I think is probably the best and the one that I've seen implemented the best is Seismic.

Being able to see which one of your customers have looked at what documents you've sent them and being able to keep them all in one place and not just marketing material, but the sales team would use it to send out, know, RFPs and kind of contracts and things like that so they can see who's looked at it, how long they've looked at it. And then they can follow up with them if they've, you know, say, for example, not heard anything from them for a while, or if it's somebody that they're reaching out to, somebody that's kind of cold emailing.

if somebody keeps opening things, then they know, well, they might be interested. I just might maybe need to probe a little bit. So it kind of depends what you're looking to store and who you're looking to share it with.

Rob Twells (14:54)

Okay, cool. It's always quite comforting for me, because obviously we're a tiny, minuscule business compared to the likes of yourself. And sometimes I run the risk of boiling the ocean. Like, let's find a really fancy tool to store all our processes and stuff, but actually, let's just create a repository in Google Drive or SharePoint, whatever it might be. Excellent. Well, look, the next part of the podcast and a question I love to ask.

Dani McNabb (15:08)

Keep it simple. Keep it simple.

Yeah, keep it simple.

Rob Twells (15:19)

because I always think anyone who's found themselves in a successful position in any role, but obviously this is around marketing and things like that, is you have to go through some failures. So what are some failures you've had? And there is bonus points if it's funny.

Dani McNabb (15:35)

Bonus points if it's funny. Probably the funniest one, well if I say funniest, it wasn't funny at the time, but looking back, no it's not funny. So I was working at a business, it was our key sales time of the year. And we had just implemented a new email system. We had hyper segmented everything out, spent a long time doing it.

Rob Twells (15:42)

I was gonna say they never are funny at the time, but hindsight is all that.

Dani McNabb (16:00)

And somebody from one of our departments came and came to me with an email and said, we'd like to send this email to all of our existing customers. It's an email telling them that we're closing an inbox that we've been using for the last 20 years. We're going to close it and people rely on it. Sure, no big deal. I read it. Yeah, looks fine. So we thought, yeah, let's test this email platform that we've got, put it on, send it to all email contacts, put their account manager at the bottom of it, send.

You sitting in an office and the phones start ringing and going absolutely crazy. And you sat there kind of going, what's happening? And people like waving like at me, just like, what, what, what? You go over, people think, people think the business is shutting. They think the business is shutting. No, read the email. It says this email address is closing, but they just got an email, seen it. I didn't write it.

Somebody from another team wrote it. I read it. I understood what they meant, but they just seemed the word closure during our key sales time of the year. And everybody went, hang on a minute, hang on a minute. Are you, are you pulling our cover? What's happening? and then what happened is the business overthought it. It was let's get every single manager in a room and talk about what a failure I am. I didn't write the email. I just clicked send. I just clicked send, but then it was, must, we must have.

we must have oversight on every list that you have, we must have oversight on every email that you send, and then this process evolved that everybody had to sign off on anything that I sent, and that lasted about two weeks. And then I went, okay, I haven't had sign off from these two people, you know, the accountant hasn't seen that and they've not said it's okay. But then also there's, we tried to kind of do a piece around interpretation. We just need to think about wording that we're using.

Email closure, the word closure is somebody's going to read an email really quick. So we need to avoid certain words, but yeah, that's the, think about a time when something failed spectacularly and it was that it was a key time of year. And that's never a good thing because marketing as anybody who's in marketing is if something doesn't go right, they're going to, well, marketing messed that up. And that was a thing that had happened that year.

Rob Twells (18:08)

Very big one.

Yeah.

Dani McNabb (18:17)

I didn't write the email, I pressed the button. I pressed the button. So after that we had to implement a whole bunch of processes and it took a long time to kind of get that right but I think that's one thing that a lot of places can get wrong in particular when you're putting new processes into place you don't think about certain things and ultimately I think that one needed somebody who wasn't in the business to proofread it before we sent it and just...

Rob Twells (18:41)

I mean, I imagine this was

before the age of AI and chat GPT, but I think I've said this on every episode since we started, but one of the things I find really useful about chat GPT is to ask how our customer, it understands our customer profile and stuff like that, ask how our customer might receive this. What are some considerations that we might not have thought about? And it's just, you know, I imagine that could have been quite useful at the time. Thank you for the pleasure.

Dani McNabb (18:45)

you

yeah, don't use the word closure. Just use a

Rob Twells (19:10)

I going say, what's the key learning there? Is that it?

Dani McNabb (19:13)

different version. The key learning there was wording. The key learning is wording. Consider every single word you have on a page, especially if emails, you want them to be short, snappy, quick, but just saying, an email box is closing. They will read that and they will see the word closing.

Rob Twells (19:17)

Good.

you need. Sounds like the aftermath was a bit messy as well. I'm gonna guess you didn't stay there too much longer.

Dani McNabb (19:33)

That's all you need.

no, I was there for several years after this. was there for quite a long time, but

it was just a matter of, as I say, wasn't my mistake. It was a mistake that happened and it was, I think the thing there was, sometimes in marketing you have to stand your ground. That wasn't my fault. It wasn't the fault of my team. It wasn't the fault of the team that wrote it. It was a misunderstanding. And yes, a lot of people misunderstanding, we reacted really quick. That is the important thing.

Rob Twells (19:48)

No, no.

Dani McNabb (20:09)

A lot of people thought, no, what are we doing? We really quickly threw together a graphic that said, you know, open for business and like, hey, some of you may have misread this email, this is what we were saying. And then we spent a long time considering how you go back and how you explain to somebody, hey, you've read the email wrong, but not saying you've read the email wrong. And yeah, I think that was kind of the start of hyper implementation of processes to make sure that we didn't say something that was going to scare somebody away.

Rob Twells (20:39)

Cool. And last but not least is what we're putting in Room 301. So for anyone that doesn't know, Room 301 is a place where we've put, so everyone we've interviewed on this podcast, all the experts have suggested something they don't like about marketing, something that really annoys them, they wanna get rid of forever, goes in Room 301, we close the door and we don't speak about it ever again. So what are you putting in there?

Dani McNabb (21:02)

I'm putting in there like, hi, my name's Bill. I work in sales and marketing. You work in sales, you don't work in marketing. I think it's one thing that people in marketing will come across a lot. The thing that I have the benefit of working in a big business is marketing is in some smaller businesses, it's important, but it's often an afterthought. And it's, well, that person's good at sales, they're quite good at their messaging. So there are sales and marketing, but in marketing, you have to be...

specialized. Like, it doesn't matter what you do, even if you are ahead of marketing, which I have been, you specialize in one thing, you're good at one thing, one thing is where your focus is. And the thing that I would like to leave behind is the view that marketeers do everything, because can marketeers do everything? Yes. Can you, can they do it well? The rare few. Um, I'm a big believer that nobody is an expert. Nobody's an expert. I've worked in marketing for nearly 20 years.

I have interviewed people who have claimed to be experts in marketing and they're 10 years younger than me and you know people that are 10 years older than me I don't see them as experts because they don't know what's what's up and coming now they don't know the newest trends whereas the people that know the newest trends they don't know why things are the way they are and why it's come to be the kind of view that one person should be able to solve all the problems or that one department should be able to solve all the problems is just something that I've never seen work and

As I say, why I love working where I work now, because I work with a sales team. They specialize in sales. I tell them how to do their messaging better. tell them how to tell better stories. And then likewise, when I go to marketing, I don't tell the ops person how to do an event. I don't tell them how to do customer stories. They give me some insight that makes my, my work better. And the view that one person can be everything, sales marketing, whatever you might be. I, I, I.

I do not subscribe to that. I think now that I've kind of specialized in product marketing myself and I've seen the benefit of working with a big business like I work with now, seeing how you rely on other people and you can't be everything. You have to be one thing to be good at that and accept that you're not an expert. You're good at that and you've got expertise, but you don't know everything. I've got staff that

work for me. I have an intern and I have another lady that's just recently started in the business and I view myself as equal to them because yes, I know strategy, I know where we're going, but they've got the new ideas. I don't know everything and I like to leave that there. Anybody who says that they know everything, they don't. They don't. And that's the kind of thing I think I would leave behind.

Rob Twells (23:49)

I agree. mean, we as an agency ourselves, know, we sometimes we find ourselves talking to, this probably happens more so with the smaller companies, you know, they might come to us and they want a set of new website, SEO support, paid Google ad support. And you know, we go through this process, we talk to them about what we can do, what we can offer, but they opt to bring in one person to do all of those functions. And I think

Maybe a few years back that was a bit easier than it is now, but I think now in particular, marketing is so nuanced that you do need a group of people. You do need a group of people who have got exposure to all these different parts of a marketing mix to make it work successfully. You can't rely on one person to do it all. And as you quite rightly said, that one person, yes, they're probably very good at one thing, but it actually just means you're gonna compromise on all the other things. And you're never gonna get a cohesive strategy doing that. that's.

Dani McNabb (24:26)

you

Rob Twells (24:45)

I agree that's something that really frustrates me and particularly, we don't often, we don't work with tiny companies so to speak, but it's happened to us a few times in the past where they've opted to not choose an agency support and get that holistic support, but instead bring somebody in, an individual, one individual to sort of cover it all. I've not seen a successful case of that happening yet.

Dani McNabb (25:07)

No,

the thing I would add to what you're saying is bring that person in and watch them burn out in six months. If you want them to achieve all the things you want them to achieve, could they potentially? Potentially, yes, but it's also more likely that they're gonna burn out.

Rob Twells (25:22)

100%. Well, look, thank you so much for being on. Now, before we go, tell us more about yourself, tell us more about where you work, what you do, and how you got into marketing.

Dani McNabb (25:33)

Yeah. So, my name's Dani. I am a product marketer as we've been through. I currently work for a business called, SBS software. They're based out of Paris, but as I've mentioned based, we've got customers in 80 countries. I'm, as I say, I'm specializing in, product marketing there. I've been there about three years. how I got started in marketing was, this is going to sound super cheesy. I've, I've never.

been to school. And a lot of people hear that and they go, how have you managed to get to the position you're in and you've not been to school? Like I finished high school. I'm from the United States. I finished high school and I moved to the UK. And how I kind of got into marketing was before I'd moved over. My dad has a business in the United States. He does manufacturing. And in school, I was good at art and I was good at creative writing. That was what I was good at. And

Yeah, I was a button pusher for him for a while, know, family business, you get involved, you muck in, you package some things, you do some assembly, that kind of thing. But then he came to a point where he realized he needed to expand and I was like, you need a website, you need some marketing, you need some marketing material. So I'm not old that yes, I helped him create a like a trifold leaflet that he had back in those days sort of thing. And we created that initially. And then when I moved to the UK, I kind of, you know,

just kind of started mucking in, getting some jobs, working in customer service. But I always kind of had like a little bit of a side role where I was getting involved in emailing customers and writing things because people would see, she writes really good emails. We should get her to write that email or we need to write a leaflet or we need to write a piece for the website. And I kind of started doing bits and pieces like that. And then I started a short-term contract with a business, came in, they seen what I...

I was capable of and they asked me if I wanted to be the head of marketing and it was like yeah sure can you do a website I've never done it but we'll figure it out I can have you ever done I've never done it but I'll figure it out sure and I did everything in that role every piece of marketing you could I hosted a podcast believe it or not so it's one of those things that I kind of got the expertise I got because I was given opportunities by

Rob Twells (27:36)

Thank you.

Dani McNabb (27:56)

people that I've met along the way. And that's one thing that, you know, to me is really important. Where you've come from is really important. And it's really important for me now that I've got people that I lead and throughout my career, when I've had people that I've led, it's important to me to give them that space to learn and grow and not to tell them how to do it. Cause ultimately that's how I've learned and that's with the people that I've managed. I've seen that that's the best way of approaching it, but.

Yeah, I sort of just ended up where I ended up because I was good at a couple of things and some people gave me a chance and when they gave me a chance I was able to take a bigger chance, I was able to take bigger risks and ultimately I'm here because of a long line of people that saw me and appreciated me.

Rob Twells (28:36)

That's an awesome story. I love how you were saying that you figured it out. think if I could describe my career journey, it's a lot of just figuring it out. And I think that's, you know, for me, that's the biggest difference between an A player and a B player. An A player is someone that will figure it out. Even if they haven't got a skill set, they'll be resourceful enough to find somebody that can help them, support them.

Dani McNabb (28:40)

You have to. You have to.

Yeah.

Rob Twells (29:01)

you know, watch enough resource, read enough things to figure it out. A B player in my opinion is somebody that just says, can't do it.

Dani McNabb (29:08)

The biggest advice I give to people when people come in, like the team that I've got now, is I'll say to them, I don't know everything. If you think I'm wrong, challenge me. If you fail and we need to fix it, fail fast. Fail, fine. Learn about it, fix it. And that's fine. You're going to fail. You're human. And ultimately I think the people that can stand up and not sit and go, why did that go wrong? Let's think about that. Let's over- no, stand up, keep going. You'll figure it out. You'll figure it out.

Rob Twells (29:38)

I concur, I concur. And on that note, thank you very much. Yeah, I love speaking to you. think you've got some really good insights there and hopefully listeners agree as well. More information, where would they find out more about you or your business, Dani?

Dani McNabb (29:54)

more about me. can find me on LinkedIn if you look for Dani McNabb, that's where I am. And SBS Software based out of Paris in France is where you can learn more about the business that I currently work for.

Rob Twells (30:06)

Excellent. And on that note, thank you all for listening. Thank you, Dani, and we'll see you again soon.

Dani McNabb (30:11)

Thank you.